|
6th
January |
-
Graham,
-
I have copied the Birdforum thread into the
attached Word document; hopefully it and the
links contained work – those of gulls
photographed on the Azores certainly show a
wide range of plumages!
-
Josh Jones and Richard Bonser suggest that
it may be impossible to prove adult Azorean
Gull in Britain (due to likeness of presumed
Herring x Less B-b Gull hybrids), but that
first/second winter birds may be possible.
-
As far as I know, the Oxfordshire bird was
never proven to be Azorean, but had a more
complete set of Azorean features than any
other adult or near adult bird seen in
Britain .
-
I agree that the hybrid option is an easy
fall back position when faced with an
unusual gull that does not fit our current
knowledge of what is undoubtedly a very
complex and closely related series of taxa.
It is inevitable, therefore, that hybrids
and backcrosses will resemble other taxa or
perhaps are these birds at the extremes of
our current knowledge of (sub) species?
|
Thanks so much Kevin,
I've
copied and pasted all the Birdforum
'Atlantis' chat onto our Chat page. It makes
interesting reading and its good to see that
everyone seems to be travelling up the
same learning curve but I don't think we
will ever get to a definite categorical
position with these adult/near adult birds
unless they happen to be carrying an
Azorean ring. Proving birds as hybrids, or
at least their exact parentage, may be
equally difficult but it's fun looking and
just appreciating the amazing variation that
we take for granted in our own species but
have been rather blind to and surprised by
amongst the gulls.
Graham
|
|
 Friday 9th December 2011, 09:47 |
#1 |
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J Jones 
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 1,900 |
Azorean Gull records in the West Mids
Hi all,
This is a quick and polite request for anyone who has seen (and
ideally photographed/videoed) any of the recent reported
Azorean-type Gulls in the West Midlands?
It'd be interesting to see a) how many birds are involved, and b) if
they are Azorean Gulls, or something else.
Any help greatly appreciated.
Cheers,
Josh
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Friday 9th December 2011, 10:04 |
#2 |
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krajoweg 
Registered User
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Cannock
Posts: 3 |
Azorean type YL Gull Chasewater link
Josh, link to a website with some images.
http://chasewater.org.uk/ |
|
Friday 9th December 2011, 13:54 |
#4 |
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The Moore-hen 
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 1,132 |
Hi Josh
As already linked any photos of the gulls will appear on the
Chasewater wildlife group site. As far as I'm aware there have been
3 Azorean type gulls - 2 different adults and the near-adult. I've
only seen the near-ad myself and whatever it may turn out to be it's
a very interesting bird! This is the individual that RBA have been
putting out as an Azorean. Not much else I can add that the photos
won't apart from the fact that when seen in flight the wings appear
quite short and rounded.
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Friday 9th December 2011, 14:08 |
#5 |
|
username
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: leicester
Posts: 3,694 |
Not West...but East Midlands Azorean type
bird...Rutland Water...[you may have already seen pix elsewhere of
this bird]...
http://username-beast.blogspot.com/
Attached Thumbnails
 |
|
Friday 9th December 2011, 14:12 |
#6 |
|
J Jones
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 1,900 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by The Moore-hen
As far as I'm aware there have been 3 Azorean
type gulls - 2 different adults and the near-adult. I've
only seen the near-ad myself and whatever it may turn out to
be it's a very interesting bird! This is the individual that
RBA have been putting out as an Azorean. Not much else I can
add that the photos won't apart from the fact that when seen
in flight the wings appear quite short and rounded. |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by username
Not West...but East Midlands Azorean type
bird...Rutland Water...[you may have already seen pix
elsewhere of this bird]... |
Thanks both.
So is
this bird, photographed at Stubber's on Nov 26th, the sub-adult
which was previously in Bedfordshire, Cambridgeshire and
Leicestershire (see Username's photograph) earlier this autumn and
first seen at Chasewater on 9th Nov?
The second candidate is therefore
this bird, clearly an adult type and labelled as present on
12th-14th November?
The third is therefore presumably
this bird, seen at Chasewater on Nov 28th, Stubber's Green on
Dec 1st, and then photographed there at Belvide on 2nd?
If I've understood this wrongly then please feel free to correct me.
I haven't got much time to respond properly right now, but to me
there is only realistically one candidate Azorean Gull here - that
being the first bird. The other two are probably examples of Lesser
Black-backed Gull x Herring Gull hybrids rather than Yellow-legged
types.
Cheers
Josh
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Friday 9th December 2011, 15:10 |
#7 |
|
snowcap
Registered User
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Great Britain
Posts: 946 |
Also possibly of interest was this large
sub-adult Yellow-legged type Gull seen in Merseyside on 30th Oct,
which seemed to have heavier/denser head streaking than expected for
autumn Michahellis types.It was also in primary moult giving it a
rather short winged appearance. |
|
Friday 9th December 2011, 17:06 |
#8 |
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The Moore-hen
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: Wolverhampton
Posts: 1,132 |
Hi Josh
Yep that's spot on with the three birds. I think the general
consensus is that the near-ad is the same bird that was in Beds etc.
It is that bird that has been the most widely accepted best
candidate for an Azorean. The photo of the bird on the deck was at
Kingswood near Cannock Tip which appears to be it's main feeding
area before roosting at Chasewater. It has been seen at Stubbers but
seems to prefer Cannock Tip rather than the landfill site near
Stubbers.
The other two adult birds are considered to be 'interesting'...but
not as interesting as the near-adult!
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Friday 9th December 2011, 17:10 |
#9 |
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Simon Wates 
Registered User
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: Algarve, Portugal
Posts: 758 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by snowcap
Also possibly of interest was this large
sub-adult Yellow-legged type Gull seen in Merseyside on 30th
Oct, which seemed to have heavier/denser head streaking than
expected for autumn Michahellis types.It was also in primary
moult giving it a rather short winged appearance.Attachment
360113 |
Not that I am experienced in this gull - this
bird looks really good doesn't tit? |
|
Friday 9th December 2011, 18:09 |
#10 |
|
Andrew Harrop
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Leicestershire
Posts: 5 |
Stubbers Green gull
The bird in the photo on the link supplied by
Josh is not the bird which was present at Rutland Water in late
October and early November. Differences include the pattern of dark
streaks on the head, width of white tertial fringes, and pattern of
primary tips (amongst others).
I'd have to say that I'm not convinced that any of the birds
photographed in the West Midlands recently is a good atlantis.
When trying to eliminate hybrids it is important to note details of
the precise pattern of dark markings on the head, width of white
scapular and tertial crescents, and pattern of primaries. |
|
Friday 9th December 2011, 18:14 |
#11 |
|
Brian Stretch
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Worcester & London
Posts: 794 |
The well documented Oxfordshire bird of 2009
(pics
here) appeared to have a more well defined hood compared
with the latest crop of birds. It also had a very brutish look which
doesn't seem apparent in any of the pictures of the West Mids birds.
Brian
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Friday 9th December 2011, 18:21 |
#12 |
|
Brian Stretch
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Worcester & London
Posts: 794 |
Also a few notes
here which also leans towards a more likely hybrid
origin.
Brian
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Birding Today |
|
Friday 9th December 2011, 18:29 |
#13 |
|
Steve Nuttall
Registered User
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Codsall
Posts: 147 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by J Jones
Thanks both.
So is
this bird, photographed at Stubber's on Nov 26th, the
sub-adult which was previously in Bedfordshire,
Cambridgeshire and Leicestershire (see Username's
photograph) earlier this autumn and first seen at Chasewater
on 9th Nov?
The second candidate is therefore
this bird, clearly an adult type and labelled as present
on 12th-14th November?
The third is therefore presumably
this bird, seen at Chasewater on Nov 28th, Stubber's
Green on Dec 1st, and then photographed there at Belvide on
2nd?
If I've understood this wrongly then please feel free to
correct me.
I haven't got much time to respond properly right now, but
to me there is only realistically one candidate Azorean Gull
here - that being the first bird. The other two are probably
examples of Lesser Black-backed Gull x Herring Gull hybrids
rather than Yellow-legged types.
Cheers
Josh |
Hi Josh,
Thanks for your comments on the Belvide Blog. For the record, I
can't get excited about any of the birds I've seen at Belvide, and
like you can't rule out the hybrid Herring/LBB Gull theory. I've
been gull watching at Belvide for 23 years now and can't say I've
seen these interesting types in previous years. Most of the time
these birds drop in with very little light available, so it's
difficult to get any proper detail. I've found it all a great
learning curve though, on this messed up taxa.
Cheers Steve
Last edited by Steve Nuttall : Friday 9th
December 2011 at
18:35. |
|
Friday 9th December 2011, 19:12 |
#14 |
|
Phil Andrews
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 2,036 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Steve Nuttall
Hi Josh,
Thanks for your comments on the Belvide Blog. For the
record, I can't get excited about any of the birds I've seen
at Belvide, and like you can't rule out the hybrid Herring/LBB
Gull theory. I've been gull watching at Belvide for 23 years
now and can't say I've seen these interesting types in
previous years. Most of the time these birds drop in with
very little light available, so it's difficult to get any
proper detail. I've found it all a great learning curve
though, on this messed up taxa.
Cheers Steve |
Which of the three birds was seen at Bartley
Resvr this week? |
|
Friday 9th December 2011, 19:33 |
#15 |
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Richard Powell
Once Bittern, Twice Shy
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Upper Tean, Staffordshire, England
Posts: 758 |
Hi Josh
These digiscoped pics maybe of use, of varying crop and quality.
Taken at the Chasewater roost on the 26th November. I uploaded a
couple of them onto Birdguides at the time. They were taken a short
time after the bird was seen at Kingswood. Presumably the same bird,
the four other birders on site certainly thought so.
Those familiar with Kingswood may know of a small roadside pond,
rather than the lake itself. The photos on the Chasewater website
for the 26th were taken when the bird was on that roadside pond!
Cheers
Richard
Attached Thumbnails
   
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Friday 9th December 2011, 20:31 |
#16 |
|
Brian Stretch
Registered User
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Worcester & London
Posts: 794 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Phil Andrews
Which of the three birds was seen at Bartley
Resvr this week? |
Hi Phil,
per TMH, it was the adult (2nd bird in post #6).
Brian
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Birding Today |
|
Friday 9th December 2011, 22:07 |
#17 |
|
J Jones
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 1,900 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Andrew Harrop
The bird in the photo on the link supplied by
Josh is not the bird which was present at Rutland Water in
late October and early November. Differences include the
pattern of dark streaks on the head, width of white tertial
fringes, and pattern of primary tips (amongst others).
I'd have to say that I'm not convinced that any of the birds
photographed in the West Midlands recently is a good
atlantis. |
Andrew,
Thanks for your contribution, appreciated. I hadn't looked at the
tertial fringes or primary tips, but had assumed the head streaking
was down to wear. Basically, when I said I thought this bird was the
best candidate, that still didn't mean I thought it was one! Whilst
definitely the most promising, it still falls short of Azorean Gull
for me for a variety of reasons, including (as you say) the pattern
of the hood and the short, pinkish legs amongst other structural
features. If I'm honest, I'm not overly convinced by the
Beds/Rutland bird either.
It is worth comparing to this subadult that I photographed on Corvo
in October:
http://joshrjones.blogspot.com/2011/...res-day-9.html
Although superficially similar note the structural differences and,
most importantly, the hood. Azorean Gulls often have a very neat
hood, and the neck and nape are almost exclusively unstreaked. The
bird in the link above is an extreme example of a near-adult, most
are not this well streaked. Adults are generally not much more
streaked than michahellis (although of course there are some
examples which are more well marked). They never look anything like
the two adults on the Chasewater website, and usually aren't
'hooded' like many expect them to be - at least not past early
winter time.
The Oxfordshire bird is a good candidate in my eyes but, if this
year's birds are all examples of LBB x Herring Gulls then we
might be struggling to identify it in a vagrant context.
Realistically, we all need to be looking for 1st/2nd-winter birds,
which are much more readily identifiable (c.f. the Cornish bird of
2006(?)).
Cheers
Josh
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Saturday 10th December 2011, 11:42 |
#18 |
|
Periwinkle
Tame Valley Birder
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Staffs
Posts: 659 |
See
here for a discussion of a bird in Warwickshire by Alan Dean.
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Wednesday 14th December 2011, 20:57 |
#19 |
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Matthebirder
Registered User
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 62 |
Josh
Just in case you haven't seen the shots of the Grafham bird on 4
Oct, it is here, terrible shot I know but was quite distant in low
light. Bird stood out very well and was presumably the individual
seen in Beds shortly before. I had been looking hard for it at
Grafham so was not surprised when it appeared.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aves-an...7625164915244/ |
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Sunday 1st January 2012, 21:27 |
#21 |
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nexstarneil
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 245 |
dark streaky headed argentatus for me |
|
Sunday 1st January 2012, 22:09 |
#22 |
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Rich Bonser
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: London
Posts: 385 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by nexstarneil
dark streaky headed argentatus for me |
Probably is an argentatus, yes. But it
really doesn't seem any darker mantled than a lot of the Herrings
around it so why, apart from a bit of head streaking (which is not a
neat hood by any means) claim it as a potential atlantis
candidate? Check out mantle shade of atlantis compared to
LBBG on
this photograph of them side-by-side on the Azores.
I was speaking to Josh yesterday about all these birds this autumn
(and previous British/Irish records - of which I've seen a couple),
and I'm really not sure whether adult atlantis can be
recorded with certainty in a vagrancy context in Britain/Ireland.
Madeiran and Portuguese populations of Yellow-legged Gulls are
conveniently by-passed in any atlantis claims too.
There is another recent atlantis candidate (if that's what
you can call any of them) at
http://www.birdingetc.com/2011/12/gulls-galore.html but again
I'd struggle to dismiss Herring x LBBG or a back cross. Leg colour
is slightly off (slightly more placid, less vivid) while the head
streaking isn't neatly hooded, trickling down onto the lower nape
and upper breast.
As Josh has eluded to previously, it's difficult to put a complete
kibosh on all these records but they just do not feel or look like
atlantis.
All the best
Rich
http://rothandb.blogspot.com/ |
|
Sunday 1st January 2012, 22:27 |
#23 |
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Paul Chapman
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Clevedon
Posts: 634 |
I know that I know nothing about gulls but this
is a straightforward question about relative colours or at least my
eyesight!
To everyone else does the bird on the right of the LBBG gull in
Richard's link look distinctly darker mantled and with a paler iris
than the two birds immediately behind it? (I know that you can only
see the iris on one of the two birds behind!)
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...cture_id=24486
I wonder what the difference would be with one of the back birds
behind alongside an argenteus compared to the bird to the right
alongside an argenteus.
On a different subject I was slightly surprised last night to see a
number of the Irish records published as accepted atlantis. Not
because I have an opinion (valid or otherwise!) on their identity
but because I had not realised that a number had been accepted - see
page 23 in the attached 2007 Report:-
http://www.irbc.ie/reports/irbr/2007_IRBR.pdf
All the best
Paul
PS Just realised that I have admitted to spending part of New Year's
Eve looking at past IRBC Reports! I am getting old.
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Last edited by Paul Chapman : Sunday 1st January
2012 at
23:18. Reason: Addition |
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Monday 2nd January 2012, 10:16 |
#24 |
|
caliprobola 
Registered User
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Ghent
Posts: 19 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Paul Chapman
I know that I know nothing about gulls but
this is a straightforward question about relative colours or
at least my eyesight!
To everyone else does the bird on the right of the LBBG gull
in Richard's link look distinctly darker mantled and with a
paler iris than the two birds immediately behind it? (I know
that you can only see the iris on one of the two birds
behind!)
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?i...cture_id=24486
I wonder what the difference would be with one of the back
birds behind alongside an argenteus compared to the bird to
the right alongside an argenteus. |
The difference is probably mainly in the angle,
the right bird being more in a lateral view compared to the other 2.
Shades of grey in gulls can change remarkebly by changing angles.
FYI some pics of hybrid LBB x herring can be found on Belgians
observations website
here. |
|
Monday 2nd January 2012, 10:49 |
#25 |
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Phil Andrews
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Birmingham
Posts: 2,036 |
Think the mantra of "a full suite of features"
is very relevant to this race. |
|
Monday 2nd January 2012, 13:11 |
#26 |
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Paul Chapman
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Clevedon
Posts: 634 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by caliprobola
The difference is probably mainly in the
angle, the right bird being more in a lateral view compared
to the other 2. Shades of grey in gulls can change
remarkebly by changing angles.
FYI some pics of hybrid LBB x herring can be found on
Belgians observations website
here. |
Very many thanks. Another experienced
gull-watcher suggested the same thing to me. It makes judging the
relative mantle shades very difficult from photos.
There also appears to be a marked difference in the orbital ring to
me. I even got my copy of Olsen and Larrson off the shelf as a
result. I'll put it back and bow out of this thread!
All the best
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Monday 2nd January 2012, 22:55 |
#27 |
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timmyjones
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: York, England
Posts: 1,448 |
I'd agree with it being an argentatus,
only posted it on here to get more traffic and opinions on it!
As Phil says a full suite of features are gonna be needed on any
atlantis claims!
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Tuesday 3rd January 2012, 08:42 |
#28 |
|
J Jones
Registered User
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Sheffield
Posts: 1,900 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by timmyjones
As Phil says a full suite of features are
gonna be needed on any atlantis claims! |
I think more realistically we need to be looking
for younger birds rather than these adult-types which, as has been
proved recently, are very easily misidentified.
First- and second-winters are a good place to start, but I really
think Azorean Gull should be little more than very rare vagrant to
our shores (rather than annual visitor).
Josh
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Tuesday 3rd January 2012, 22:29 |
#29 |
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Harry Hussey 
Registered User
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Cork,Ireland
Posts: 3,745 |
Hi Paul,
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Paul Chapman
On a different subject I was slightly
surprised last night to see a number of the Irish records
published as accepted atlantis. Not because I have an
opinion (valid or otherwise!) on their identity but because
I had not realised that a number had been accepted - see
page 23 in the attached 2007 Report:-
http://www.irbc.ie/reports/irbr/2007_IRBR.pdf |
Without wishing to be seen as unnecessarily
pedantic, it should be noted that these birds have been accepted
merely as "showing characters of": it is never stated that these
are, beyond any doubt, Azorean atlantis, merely that they
seem to show the characters associated with birds from that
population.
Perhaps, in time, some or all of these records may be reviewed if
new information comes to light, as is the case with records of any
difficult taxa.
I have no experience of Azorean atlantis in their native
range, but, having just returned from a non-birding trip to the
Canary Islands, I can state that none of the Yellow-legged Gulls
that I saw there (sometimes included in a greater atlantis,
though always acknowledged to look less distinct than Azorean birds)
had such head streaking as associated, in popular imagination, with
Azorean birds, none seemed that much darker than typical
michahellis (perhaps a little, but they were all obviously paler
than nearby graellsii), many looked quite similar
structurally to michahellis (perhaps with slightly shorter
tibia, but otherwise typical). The only "on average" differences
that seemed to hold for a majority of adult birds were a paler iris
and a lack of a mirror on P9 (none of the adults I saw well enough
to check this had any hint of a mirror on P9).
Regards,
Harry |
|
Tuesday 3rd January 2012, 22:32 |
#30 |
|
Paul Chapman
Registered User
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Clevedon
Posts: 634 |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Harry Hussey
Hi Paul,
Without wishing to be seen as unnecessarily pedantic, it
should be noted that these birds have been accepted merely
as "showing characters of": it is never stated that these
are, beyond any doubt, Azorean atlantis, merely that they
seem to show the characters associated with birds from that
population. Regards,
Harry |
Harry
Don't worry about being pedantic. A good point well made. You are
right to correct me on that.
I suppose that is one of the advantages of a taxonomic approach
whereby true/Azorean atlantis is a subspecies rather than a species.
If only we could accept some of the problematic orange-billed terns
as "showing characters of Elegant"!
All the best
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Clevedon & Portishead Bird Patch List - 219; Clevedon & Portishead
Moth Patch List - 768; British & Irish Macro Moth List - 796;
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Last edited by Paul Chapman : Tuesday 3rd
January 2012 at
22:36. Reason: Addition |
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